The next building phase. Discussion in english

[Frederik Braun]

Our next building phase is made up: Scandinavia. Again, we will build right in front of our guest's eyes. Currently, the planning is set to "Scandinavia with highlights from all participating countries". Because space is rare, this again will be a balancing act between prototype and freelancing. For the time being, we are discussing wether the available area ( baout 120 sqm) for Scandinavia will be divided into countries or if we will mix the highlights from all scandinavian countries into one layout. This way, it would not be recognizable where Denmark starts and Sweden ends but every scandinavian visitor would be able to recognize typical landmarks from his country. This would be like in our american part of the layout, where highlights from all over the country have liberally been "squeezed" into a relatively small space. The advantage is that the layout would be more attractive, since one make the most of the available room. Well, now we would like your assistance.

Dear fans of scandinavian railroads and prototypes,
We plan to build Scandinavia for our next building project.
Since we want to at least partly model the prototype and avoid typical mistakes, and, on top of that, want to show scandinavian railroad highlights, we definitely need your help. We do not want a "german-built" scandinavian layout. What we want, is the typical fantastic flair of the scandinavian countries. Some ideas have already been compiled, like "ore", for example. But what has DEFINITELY to be built? Which are the typical points of a scandinavian railway? Where are the differences between german and scandic railways? Which train compositions are important to you? Are there any specialities regarding driving regulations, signalling, and/or rules? Which technical lineside details do we have to obey? Do you have fotos or links regarding important stations, depots, bridges or other important structures? And now the most important question : Is it realistic to show Norway, Sweden, Finland, and Danmark in one single layout or room?

We would really be glad if you'd discuss these questions with us and other scandic fans. Please forward these questions to your friends and realtives. Are there any other fora in Scandinavia which might be important for us? If so, we would very much appreciate, if you could post these questions here.

[Lars G]

Since Finland to my knowledge has a different gauge on their tracks, a combination of the three countries will be somewhat difficult, unless one chosses to overlook the difference and simply let Finnish rains run on "normal" H0-track.

Norway differs greatly from Denmark and Southern Sweden concerning topgraphy. While Denmark and S.Sweden is mainly flat, railway building has been a lesser challenge than in Norway, which is blessed with a mountains and obstacles for the railway constructors.

Being from Norway I will limit myself to comment mainly on norwegian railways. Single-track railway is most common, and the track is rather curvy compared to e.g. Denmark and Southern Sweden.

Then, whats typical? The Oslo - Bergen line was famed during its construction, and is thought of as a masterpiece in engineering at the time of construction. The difference in topography, relativly large differences in temperature and humidity during the trip is demanding and tough on to the trains that run there. The line has been used as test-environment for many new locomotives from all over Europe in order to test performance under such variable elements. Rolling stock: NSB: El 18 (Märklin, HAG, Roco), El 16 (Roco), Cargonets Freightloco El 14 (Lima). Waggons: B3 (Lima), B5 (Lima)

The Iron-Ore line Narvik - Kiruna (Norway - Sweden) has been mentioned as interesting, and to that I agree. The iron-ore traffic is today performed by teh private operator MTAS (Malm Transport Aksje Selskap) which has lboth Dm3 and IORE, both available from Roco. Furthermore, alot of swedish rolling stock is used by Connex on the passenger traffic Narvik - Stockholm, Rc (Märklin, Roco, Fleischmann) and swedish passenger coaches (lima, Roco). Märklin recently launched a special edition with an Rc in TKABs special design and three sightseeing coaches (former DB) The new operator Ofotbanen AS uses surplus Norwegian rolling stock, thereamongst former NSB Di3 (heljan, Roco, Märklin) and El 13 (Lima) and passenger coaches former NSB b3 (Lima).
The Narvik - Kiruna line is an attraction in itself, running through quite spectacular country, with fjords and high rises, enough to please any tourist.

An idea in combining countries Denmark - Sweden - Oslo could be in choosing to model the internationla traffic between the countries. This idea allows using most common rolling stock available as models. Until 1994, EuriCity trains ran from Europe over Denmark to the catiptals of both Sweden and Norway. These trains also used German rolling stock.

[Karolus]

You can in the middle have Öresundsbron and Copenhagen on one side down to Germany from Rödby/Puttgarden and Malmö on the other side. From Malmö you can traffic the westcoast in Sweden to Gothenburg and from that to Norway and Oslo. From Malmö you also can go to Stockholm and throw Norrland with rivers with cut wood in the waters and boats and so on. Factories of paper and steelfactories with long trains to them and long trains over to Norway. You also in the north can see wintersports and go to the east to Finland and after that pass Russia to Germany.
This would be something. I hope you understand my bad english.
brittis.kalle@telia.com

[Dag Cato]

Hei Lars.
You forgot to mention Nordlandsbanen wich runs from Trondheim to Bodø. This is a dieselline and it crosses Saltfjellet. Saltfjellet is high up, no trees, raindeers (!) snowshelters and a lot of snow. Di3 (Nohab) was the most commonly used locomotive until its days ended. Di4, Di8, BM93 (Talbot Talent with no middlecar) and CD66 (Class 66) is in use as of today.

Your sincerely
Dag Cato Skårvik

[Laurenz Edelman]

For photos you could take a look at my website at http://www.jernbane.net/
There are over 4000 photos from mainly Norway but also a lot from Sweden.
You should also see http://www.arctictrains.com/ and http://www.johnsern.com/

Best regards,
Laurenz Edelman

[Lars Gj]

I quite agree with you! There are alot of other interesting points to be made, but I did not hav the time. One COULD argue that I put up the things I subjectively found most interesting, and of course I am free to do that?

Another tip to "typical stations" in Norway, see:

http://medlem.njk.no/stdb/VisEkspsted.php

This is page by NJK, abbreviation translated into: Norwegian Railway Club. The page displays almost all stations and stops in Norway, including pictures. Unfortunately it is in Norwegian, but scroll to the bottom of the page to wiew the links to the different lines.

[Dag Cato]

This kind of list is bound to be subjective . Thats why I mentioned Nordlandsbanen.
But to be specific about Noeway, what is typical is a lot of curves. We asy, as a joke of course, that the Norwegian railnetwork is one curve . Tunels are buildt only where it had to. Maunly the navys tried to go around obstacles.

MVH
Dag Cato

[Qrt, Schweden]

Dear MiWuLa Team
As I have not yet been in Hamburg, bei euch, I do of course not know first hand the reactions to your America-part. However, looking through the Gastbuch I get the feeling that those who are familiar with Amerika find it disturbing when landscape parts which should be to the "east" are to the "west"etc. I would probably feel the same if you made a wild mix of the Nordic countries. Also those who have not yet been there will have difficulties and MiWuLa and the real world will be kept apart instead of thriving from each other. The greatest model railroads I think are those who in spite of all the compromises makes you believe it could be true even if it is not.

And now the most important question : Is it realistic to show Norway, Sweden, Finland, and Danmark in one single layout or room?

Yes, if you can find a way of mixing it all together to one Denordenland,
building the layout so to speak with an easy to follow (railway)line going from far south in Denmark to the far north in Sweden/Norway/Finland, then I think it is the best idea. Something like "Nils Holgersons travels", (the book written by Selma Lagerlöf to be used at the geography lessons in the swedish schools.) Updated, of course, and covering all the five nordic countries. He flew, on a goose, But the perspective is the same !
I would also include Island. Although they only have two steam locomotives and never built a railway. But, they came close..
http://www.narrow-gauge.co.uk/articles/ ... in_iceland

Which train compositions are important to you?

LONG trains. Not until I came to Germany and saw for my self, did I believe that there could exist expresstrains with only two cars. Lokal trains, yes, but expresstrains running from Malmö to Luleå had 13 or more cars.

SHORT YELLOW RAILCAR TRAINS These railcars (both the older yellow and the newer orange/yellow) are unique to SJ.

As for the other rolling stock, nowadays anything goes.
For example:
- It is possible to run authentic "pendeltåg" (S-bahn) trafic in the greater Stockholm area using SL-blue, sligthly modified ET420 trains from Munich and forming other trains with coaches in their original colours from Denmark.
- panoramacoaches from german TEE trains now run on the "Inlandsbanan"
- during the 1920-s many railcars and locomotives where bought from Germany due to the depression.
- swedish private companies have resently bought used locomotives from austrian, danish, british, german and norwegian railway companies..
etc.etc.

http://www.google.com/search?as_q=420+p ... itesearch=

It will also be easy to bond with the other parts of MiWuLa.
- Almost every european locomotive has been tested on Swedish tracks.
- Long trains with heavy products run from the northern parts down to the continent.
- Swedish constructed locomotives and trains where tested in the USA and then manufactured over there for Amtrak.
- German "Sonderzüge" (with interesting locomotive combinations) have been as far north as to the polar circle.

Finally there is one special peculiar thing in the Stockholm area which might be of interest for the Scandinavian part:
As many cities, Stockholm at first had two separated major stations "Södra Station" and "Stockholms Central"
They where later linked together through a bridge and a tunnel with two tracks. "sammanbindningsbanan" .There still are only two tracks for the whole north-south bound traffic passing Stockholm. On these two tracks ALL trains have to run on these two tracks:
S-bahn,Lokalzüge, Schnellzüge, ICE-züge, Güterzüge.....
If you combine it with a realistically big station, it might create interesting traffic and logistic problems:
Now it seems possible that there may be new tracks built before 2010 but still you can study the traffic .

As for suggestions on your other questions I leave it be for now. Many others will start new threads,that´s for sure.

[Qrt, Schweden]

SHORT YELLOW RAILCAR TRAINS These railcars (both the older yellow and the less older orange/yellow) are unique to SJ.

I forgot, they can be found in Denmark too, for a swede in a less nostalgic colorscheme.

[Peter (Sweden)]

An interesting idea of building Scandinavia.

I think a good idea is NOT mixing trains from all Scandinavian countries together, because it's not typical for the traffic.

I think it's a better idea to have two stations from each country with typical traffic for each country between them. The typical is NOT big stations and big trains, but small stations.

In Finland i e with it's broad gauge. They have their own trains. A good idea is to have two stations for each country and traffic between them. In Finland with its own gauge they have their own trains. In Sweden of course there are Swedish passenger trains going to Norway (Oslo) and Trondheim (Oslo) and of course the ore trains from The Minings to Narvik. But it's not typical for Sweden.

In Norway they have their models of locomotives and cars. A good idea is to think about the passenger trains to Airport Gardermoen i e.

In Denmark Diesel trains are common. But even if they have electric trains, they don't go into Sweden, because it's not the same Voltage and Frequence. Of course some of the X2000 high speed trains go to Denmark.

But of course you can have a small amount of trains crossing the borders, but the main idea is to have separate areas for each country.

There are not so many people living in Scandinavia. It's better with fewer tracks and more landscape. There is a famous Model Railway of Uno Milton at the Technical Museum in Stockholm with beautiful landscape but no stations! Visit it and you get an idea of what I mean.

If you read Swedish Model Railway magazines and so on, many Modellers prefare small stations, short trains and few cars. That is the spirit of a typical Model Railroader in Scandinavia.

So my advice is: Small stations, small trains, small town, lots of landscape. Don't mix the countries to much.

Of course, many thinks of the Bridge between Denmark and Sweden as spectaculaire. But it's not typical, and nothing that especially will attract visitors from Scandinavia. Building scenes typical for each contry will make the visitors hearts beat better, so to say.

My suggestion is that you put up ideas somewhere on this site, and then listen to suggestions from scandinavian visitors.

I think it would be great if these scene would be done! I wish you good luck!

Best regards

Peter from Sweden

[Qrt, Schweden]

Dear MiWuLa team.
I totally agree with many of the other Beiträge:
Please keep this important part of the Forum structured as much as you can. Already there are several Beiträge on the same subject who should be collected under an already existing headline instead of standing alone. This would make it much easier to read through the different Beiträge according to the different parts of this intriguing event of yours, before one writes the same as already h as been written.

[Norweger]

Some important points about transportation in Norway:

Cars, trucks and busses are the main form of transportation in most parts of Norway - the distances are great and the population density mostly low so roads are the primary mode.

Trains normally move on single track lines -- double tracks are normally found arround the larger metropolitan areas -- and double tracks sections are mainly established to facilitate train meets. Stations that not longer are served by passenger or freight trains may still have a major part of their trackwork active, as they still would be used for train meets.

[Guest]

Hi!

Thought you might like this.. As most of your visitors is non-norwegian this will seem as a joke.

It is so that in Norway there's a station called "Hell", that gotta be fun to make a model of..

Its on Nordlandsbanen just north of Trondheim (I think)

Anyway some pics:

http://www.jernbane.net/norge/langslinj ... ellst1.jpg (2002)

http://medlem.njk.no/stdb/f/4310-793-6705.jpg (1971)

[Paul K from Pendon]

[quote="Guest"]Hi!

Thought you might like this.. As most of your visitors is non-norwegian this will seem as a joke.

It is so that in Norway there's a station called "Hell", that gotta be fun to make a model of..

And also Paradis (district, no jernbane station, alas) just outside Bergen.